Author Topic: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?  (Read 4528 times)

awleonard

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Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« on: January 11, 2013, 10:24:12 AM »
I'd like to build something similar to this cellarette at Winterthur.  Anybody have any dimensions or know where I can look?  I'll probbaly shrink it as it looks too big for my space, but I would like to get some proportions and such to start with. 

Thanks,

Tony



macchips4

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 11:41:10 AM »
In the latest issue of Popular woodworking there is an article about building a cellarette. you could work from there for construction and dimension ideas. it looks to be smaller then the one in your post but I do not remember if it is based on any actual period piece. But it could be a start.
Joe

cbentzley

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 02:10:42 PM »
Tony

If you are a Winterthur member and know the acquisition number, call them and they will email you a PDF file with dimensions and other pertinent data.

Craig

ttalma

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 10:00:00 AM »
not sure of the dimensions but where did you get the picture? and are there more pictures of the collection?
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awleonard

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Woodmolds

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 10:56:42 AM »
Very interesting that it's a North Carolina piece.

Tony
"Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly ever acquire the skill to do difficult things easily.? Friedrich von Schiller (1759-1805)

gvforster

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 07:43:27 PM »
Yes, interesting; the case has a Black Walnut top, but the sides are Yellow Pine veneered with Black Walnut. It is difficult to tell from the photos, but perhaps the Walnut veneer has a extraordinary grain pattern. Otherwise why go thru the extra effort of veneering, when Walnut boards of adequate width could be obtained.

Of course, veneering the case also would remove the necessity of cutting full-blind dovetails; this seems plausible .
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 07:52:39 PM by gvforster »

Jack Plane

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 10:32:45 PM »
The cellaret looks like a marriage to me. Apart from looking exceedingly clumsy and disproportionate, there are other clues:
1. The dividers/rails above and below the pull-out slide are very heavy and not commensurate with similar rails of the period. They appear to have been made to fill the gap between the existing drawers and what is now the top of the 'stand' rather than having been made as delicate, uniform cabinet rails or dividers.
2. The base is of a reasonably high quality and I therefore can't for one minute believe the person who made those shapely legs would have left the raw edges of the top of the 'stand' visible below the waist moulding. Again, period practices would dictate a substantial moulding with at least an inch overhang.
3. The waist moulding isn't! It's an inverted cornice moulding. Again, the maker of the base would not have made such a faux pas.
4. The actual cellaret was probably made to fit the void resulting from attaching the inverted cornice moulding to the base. It doesn't follow that the cellaret is pine yet the lid is solid walnut. The lid is most likely made from what was the original top of what ever the base formerly was. I would guess that the base is made entirely from solid walnut which would lend support to the cellaret being made-up and the lid belonging to the base.
5. The handles on the side of the base are drawer handles, not lifting handles, and look quite modern. The plate handles on the drawers also look modern, supported by the fact that the escutcheon on the cellaret is merely the bottom half of a third plate handle, crudely cut off in an arc ? again, something the maker of the base would not have contemplated.
Regards, Jack.

ttalma

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 09:02:04 AM »
Tony, Thanks for the link interesting article. I plan to make a cellarette one day I think is #532 on my list of things to build.

Jack raises some interesting points. And the piece doesn't look to bad when I hold my finger over the case itself. This wouldn't be the first time a piece was considered authentic and later found to be "enhanced".
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awleonard

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2013, 11:41:43 AM »
Its a nice piece to my eye regardless.  I plan on doing my own design heavily influenced by this piece.  The space I need to fill is small, so I want something probbaly a little smaller than I am assuming this one is.  Not sure how I'll handle the box.  I prefer not to have the dovetails showing.  Finding nice wide boards in Memphis is beyond reality.  I can order them, but at the premium prices they demand, I may just go with veneer.  We'll see.  I've never carved a knee before and I was thinking I might use this project to try carving my first knees.  I have some nice mahogany leg stock I can use and I have a  little bit of honduran I bought recently.  A nice crotch veneer might look good.  I believe I have a couple of pieces.  I normally use MDF for my substrate, but I just don't think that would be appropriate here (I'm NOT a purist).  I'll have to noodle this a bit.  

Oh, the fact that it is a NC piece is particularly of interest to me since I am a Tar Heel!

I got the PWW article.  That will be a good reference. 
Thanks,

Tony
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 11:48:05 AM by awleonard »

Peter Storey Pentz

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2013, 05:28:13 PM »
Tony,

The January/February 2013 issue of Antiques Magazine has an ad for a similar piece of furniture being offered by Philip Bradley.  It is from Pennsylvania and is smaller and simpler.  It might be in some of their online advertising.  Perhaps you can incorporate ideas from both sources.

Jack,

Your analysis of the Winterthur "cellarette" is very interesting.  You have raised a some very good points and I would be careful regarding its authenticity.  It would not be the first nor the last fake to find itself in an important collection.  It would be fun to get our hands on this piece and turn it upside down.  PSP

Jack Plane

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 06:54:49 PM »
Peter, I wouldn't label this 'cellarette' as a fake for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, if it were indeed made to defraud, then one would expect a far greater amount of care to have been lavished on it to fool even the novice collector. Fakes normally encompass all the right ingredients even if their execution and finish are left wanting.

Secondly, it's altogether more likely that it was adapted from another piece of furniture to suit the requirements of the then owner. Could it have once been a one-piece cabinet-on-stand (with one of the doors ? or even a cut-off side panel - becoming the panel for the new lid)? If formerly a cabinet, then it could also have supplied the cornice that is now the waist/separation moulding.

I would just call this piece a wrong'un and send it to auction.

Indeed, I would be very interested in reading a report on this piece if a member can get to look over it.
Regards, Jack.

Peter Storey Pentz

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Re: Winterthur Cellarette Dimensions?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 11:17:54 PM »
Jack,

Points well taken.  I should be more precise about using four-letter words that begin with 'F'.  I have an auctioneer friend who refers to this sort of thing as "Frankenfurniture".  And, like you, were I so unwise as to acquire it, it would go to auction.  PSP