String Inlay on Lolling Chair arm support?

[CBWW]

I have seen alot of them that way as well.  If you are going to cut everything by hand, thats probably how I would do it-  Its easier to lay out and cut that way.  But, I dont do it all by hand.  Theres more than one way to skin the cat... 

[awleonard]

Thanks.  That's interesting.  I assumed the angled tenon was the way to go because that is what I have seen mostly.  But then I just saw an article by Garrett Hack where he buids a chair and does just what you suggest (used a router though).  I wonder if it makes any difference once it is all glued up?  Your method sounds a little easier. 

Thanks,

Tony

[awleonard]

So, I got to thinking about this, the shoulders still have to be angled.  How do you cut those?  Rather than building jigs, I thought it might be easier to rough at the TS then finish them by hand.

Tony

[albreed]

Tony-It depends how many you're making. If you're doing one, it's pretty easy to lay everything out and cut by hand. I'm with Jeff- I've never seen an angled tenon on a period piece, they go straight off the line of the rail. If I'm doing a set of chairs I'll cut the compound angled shoulders on the sled on the saw and dado blade away most of the rest. You can make compound angled mortises with a plunge router with an angled base attachment very fast, but you need left and right beds for the base-or you can make an angled bed for the mortising machine, which is pretty efficient also. Put your legs in two separate piles way apart from each other so you don't end up with all left or right legs..........Al

[CBWW]

I think your approach should be based on the equipment you have and  your approach to being a "purist".  If you have the time and want to do everything by hand, chop your mortise out by hand and cut your tenon by hand straight off the rail with angled shoulders that can be quickly chopped by hand.  I havent seen "old" ones an other way and thats a great way to do it if money is NOT involved.  OR, if you have a mortiser, rip a piece to the trapezoid angle to support your leg in the mortiser, then cut the tenon by hand- OR cut your mortise square to the face of the leg and take your tenon of a shaper in one pass(like a single end tenoner). Stack two rabbeting bits on the spindle with machinist spacers, make a sled with hold downs(important), cut a wedge to the trap. shape to support your piece, and to cut your tenons consistently to within thousandths of an inch so all are press fit.  And if you do it this way, might as well run extra parts b/c in the time it takes you to saw/chop mortises for one chair, I'll have the joinery done for multiple chairs.  I suspect techniques like this on this website, people dont want to hear about or have no interest in and thats fine.   You really cant argue about the strength of a "cross grain"  angled tenon.  Cut one, stick it in a vise and see.  If there is that much pressure side ways on a joint to cause failure....its all going to fail.  My training(outside of school) and multiple working shop experiences over the years have all been based on making $ which means fast accurate production.   I dont think there is anything wrong with either approach.  I just know which one will put $ in my pocket.  If $ or time isnt involved, dont over analyze it, take the approach which will allow you to have fun and improve your skill.

[Jeff L Headley]

I am not as concerned as to what produced the joint as to how the joint fits and lasts over time. Structural stability shouldn't be a choice it should be a requisite. Time is money and money has it's advantages but with a small amount of forethought you can have both. Why sacrifice one for the other. Speed and proficiencies is what was sought after in previous times as should be today. They should go hand in hand. If you produce the best piece possible then there should be little apologises. Something to stand behind instead of running away from in pursuit of the ever dwindling dollar. We should build pieces that will last for lifetimes intstead of the next paycheck. I know that building pieces out of wood might not be considered green but what most of us strive for is for our pieces to last for 100's of years rather than the next decade, if that, like much of the furniture produced today.

[Jeff L Headley]

Tony, After my previous venting, are you running your arms into the top of the front legs or into the side rails?

[CBWW]

Jeff,

Couldnt have said it better myself and I agree with you 100%.  I gladly stand behind every piece I produce. 

[awleonard]

Well, I'm not a purist by any stretch.  I'm just trying to build decent furniture that will look good and stay together in my home.  I'm not sure how what I said was taken based on comments.  I'm just trying to visualize the different options and pick what is best for my arsenal of tools and capabilities.  Maybe my comment on "after its glued up" was taken wrong?  What I meant by that was that once the glue has dried, everything acts as a structure vs the individual components.  I was concerned about the angled mortises because I was thinking that the end of the mortise comes close to the outside face of the leg.  I've seen that some folks move the tenon to the inside face - that adds some meat to the outer wall of the mortise.  I found some of my notes on the settee I built many years ago and what I did was build a tenon jig that held the rail at the proper angle and I used a dado blade to make the tenons.  That seemed to work as the settee has been used for many years now.  My hand skills are better now that they were then and I just figured I cut rough cut and finish by hand quicker than I could build a special jig (although I have a fancy tenon jig now that might make things easier). Anyway, thanks for the help.  The chair and settee I have built both had angled tenons, so I'll probably go that route. 

Oh, as it stands the arm posts will land on top of the rail.  Is there something I should know or consider there? 

Thanks,

Tony

[CBWW]

Tony, 

Well, that really morphed from your original question of the string inlay hugh?  From my point of view, I dont think anything was "taken wrong".  I think you need to figure out which approach will work for you, analyze and plan your approach for the end product being the best possible.  There is enough info that has been contributed in these post to accomplish the joinery in a number of different steps.  Personally, I dont feel that because someone has "never seen a period one done that way" that anything different is wrong.  Jeff said it best- speed and proficiencies is what was sought after in previous times as should be today.  The shaper with tennons shimmed to less than 1,000th, with consistent accuracy, cut in one pass, works for me personally.  Hard to argue with that.  If I didnt have a shaper set up for this, I would probably think of using the table saw but then I would have to think about set up time, making jigs, compared to a one-off hand cut joint.  If you have the fancy tenon jig, try it out.  When you lay out the mortises in the front leg, just maximize for the most meat around each tenon.    Im not really sure where Jeffs "venting" came from.  Maybe Im just over analyzing his response and him likewise.  But he still hasnt elaborated on how he would cut the joint.   

[Jeff L Headley]

Tony, I just asked about the arm as to how the upholstery might fit. Are you going to cover the skirt below the arm but above the leg with fabric or leave the primary surface and then finish the joint. It is much easier to cover the intersection between the arm and front leg with fabric rather than finish but the finished leg looks a little nicer in my opinion. Run a tennon up the top of the front leg into a mortise cut into the bottom of the arm post.
With a small comment on a previous post I always try to keep at least 3/8" of meat between a mortise an outside edge for the shoulder of a tennon.

[awleonard]

Thanks.  I was mistaken - I,m still in the planning stages and wasn't visualizing the chair plan correctly. yes, the arm support lands on top of the front leg.  Although, I saw some "late model" chairs very similar to what I have been looking at in a doctor's office the other day that had the support postlanding on the outside rail surface and that looked nice.  A different look, but nice.  The arms were much shorter I assume that arms that extend to the front legs.  That said, the arms that extend to the front legs seem to give the characteristic look to the common description of a lolling chair.  That's the approach I will take more than likely. 

Tony

[awleonard]

Hmm, well, I need to get this image in my head straight.  I just looked at several pictures and the arms are generally the same length becase the "support" as I am calling it is curved.  I think I like the style where the fabric does not wrap around the leg and support. 

Tony